, , Section 3, , , , Section 7,
Subject: School day tale / Otago Museum.
Martin... Hi, my name is Paul, here's a little story you might find amusing from my school days at Kenmure Intermediate School in Dunedin in '77 when I was 12. - We were asked to write what we knew of early NZ colonial history, and being an avid reader since a very early age I had studied the subject avidly before we emigrated in ' 74. I thought 'no problem' - and was asked (in turn) to read my paper to the class. After mentioning cannibalism and utu (revenge ) I was told to shut-up, and dragged before the headmaster who informed me I was a (quote) 'filthy pommie bastard' and got six hits of the strap on the palm of my hand for 'spreading my racist lies' and trying to upset other members of the class. The teacher in question spent the next 18 months in verbal abuse to me, and encouragement of class mates to 'set right' (bully) the 'filthy pommie bastard' in question. I remember feeling quite confused. Anyway... the reason for this e-mail is a story I was told by a friend of mine who was a curator @ Otago Museum a few years ago when my family structural steel concern was building the new extension. He informed me that in the 'vaults' were many items of Moriori artifacts, as well as unknown origin metal items (he mentioned brass and bronze) that they 'by law' were not allowed to exhibit. He didn't know why or by who this was done. I have asked and wrote to the museum about these objects, but have never received a reply. I myself remember viewing Moriori objects there from '74 onwards but these were removed in the late '80s. I guess history is not at all what I thought it was meant to be, but then again what's the opinion of a pommie bastard anyway??? Nice book by the way, but I must disagree with your Stonehenge/ Giza theory, its the old 'if you draw enough lines you can see anything' trick in my book. But well done to bring out the discussion on the truth anyway.
PAUL SMITH working in Wigan UK.
I'm very sorry to hear about your unfortunate run-in with the New Zealand education system, who labeled you as an "illegitimate Prisoner of Mother England"... for having a studied view of local history, based upon what was actually observed and recorded in early colonial New Zealand.
Unfortunately, we're burdened with droves of these present-day idiots who dominate the educational scenery and modify true, raw history into socially engineered, "touchy- feely", sanitised versions.
The evidence of the earlier, pre-Maori people is all over the country and many or most of the Maori cultural symbols are, quite obviously, Megalithic British/ Mediterranean in style and meaning. The Maori warriors overwhelmed the earlier people, annihilated or absorbed them, then took over everything the earlier group had...whole villages, canoes, greenstone objects, carved totems, cultural symbolism...the works.
I would dearly love it if your friend would provide me with an affidavit concerning Otago Museum's official policy against displaying the more ancient artefacts. I've heard this before in relation to the Otago Museum and have written about it in my book. Several people have complained about this suppression of artefacts...and not only in relation to Otago Museum's collection.
A few years ago my colleague, Gary Cook, was in contact with a representative of the Tainui people, who had the assignment of going to the museum and identifying artefacts found within the traditional region of her Iwi. The Tainui representative said that she was shown large drawers full of objects in the basement and commented to Gary that most of what she saw was not of Maori origin.
Is your friend still the Curator or has he moved on to less "clandestine" enterprises?
You could really help us here in New Zealand if you could set up a link between your friend and I. You would also have the last laugh and be vindicated for the treatment you got from the imbecile teacher, who verbally abused you over a period of 18-months or for the "six of the best" you unfairly received.
I'd encourage you to look at the mathematics of my book again, or go directly to my website at www.celticnz.co.nz
It's not a case of "drawing enough lines" but of some very definite dimensions recurring on the worldwide distribution of sites.
A good archaeological site for you to look at would be The Octagon of Newark Ohio (a 29000 word & 112 AutoCAD picture analysis of the site is found in the articles section of my website). Look also at the article on The Crosshouse of Miringa te Kakara. I can't fake the mathematical occurrences absolutely in evidence within these sites, especially where they relate to PHI or strong lunar and navigational codes. This is not a hypothesis or a theory...just plain, on the ground, functioning mathematical relationships between tangible structures.
Hope you can put me in contact with your friend... and that he's willing to talk for the benefit of the New Zealand people.
From: Gene Matlock
Tuesday, September 18, 2001
Subject: About Mark Newbrook
Dear Mr. Doutre,
I was reading what Mark Newbrook said about me. I tried vainly to tell him that I don't exactly use linguistics per se. Although I often veer from the "straight and narrow," I tend to boil down all the "linguistics" I use to spiritual, caste, and place names. Those words are as hard to change as the Rock of Gibraltar. He has also accused me of using 18th century ideas about linguistics. And what's wrong with that?
The world will remember Edward Pococke, Sir William Jones, L. A. Waddell, Godfrey Higgins and others for as long as the world stands. The 17th century orientalist and linguist, Edward Pococke, has well earned for himself a permanent place in history.
Instead of trying to act like Inspector Jaubert of Les Miserables, tracking down "linguistic criminals," or as a Jehovah's Witness wanting to put us "linguistic sinners" on the "straight and narrow road to salvation, Mark Newbrook should contribute some of the originality he claims to have.
At least the Hindus and several of our largest Amerindian tribes are taking what I have to say seriously. This last May, I was instrumental in setting up a meeting between some Hindu Sanskrit scholars and the Caddo Indian tribe. They are going to start meeting regularly. Several other Amerindian tribes are also contacting me about these matters.
Mark had better get busy and save "their poor lost souls" before any more find out about their Hindu origins.
Gene D. Matlock
nice to hear from you and to get some insights into the way you approach your research.
I've tried to tell Mark pretty much the same thing about my association with "linguistics". I don't claim to have any expertise in deciphering scripts or recognising distinct, borrowed words within the Malayo-Polynesian language families or in any ancient languages further afield.
I've referred Mark to others who claimed some expertise in this area but have not advanced any opinions based on personal research, as it's not an area I dabble with. Despite this, Mark has a tendency to assign me to a pigeonhole and belief system with regards to linguistics, then proceeds to demolish it.
The science of Historical Linguistics appears to be a particularly clinical branch of science that I doubt I could get very passionate about personally. It looks to me a lot like a game of dominoes, where the pattern builds and moves erratically across the table (world) in stepping stone fashion and can branch out in any direction at any given time.
Although Mark would severely scald me for saying so, perhaps the science, as it matured, was structured at a time when there was entrenched belief in isolationism and those tracking the movement of language on continents separated by vast oceans might have relied too heavily on this presumption.
The factor that there is now emerging evidence of advanced shipwright and navigation skills since very remote epochs seems to be absent from the traditional "Historical Linguistics" equation, especially relating to isolated regions like the Pacific.
Perhaps adherents to heretofore accepted (isolationism-driven) concepts of Historical Linguistics methodology, having underrated/ overlooked a significant (diffusionism) ingredient, are committed to a somewhat limiting premise in the development of their science. Some inflexible traditionalists might, as a consequence, feel threatened by dynamic new perspectives that have the potential to introduce unplanned for and "back to the drawing board" oversights.
If there was reasonably consistent ancient shipping and trade throughout vast regions like the Pacific, then some borrowed language influences should have been injected into regional usage. Shipwrecks and the stranding of foreign nationals would have had the potential of causing a large language effect within a region, generating a pidgin form of communication that was finally absorbed into the intonation of the indigeneous population and rendered unrecognisable.
We have words in Maori like the surname Paneora, which some Maori people have told me is derived from "Hispaneola"...and denotes a lineage to Spanish sailors shipwrecked on our shores. These seamen, far from home, were later absorbed into the Maori tribes and had offspring. Maori genealogies include such individuals in the family tree.
Traders would most certainly have exerted a major language influence and a merchant pidgin would have developed from that interaction.
As is stated, Mark can find not one local (Maori) word of Egyptian/ Libyan or Indo-Aryan origin, despite the fact that there are estimated to be over 1000 such words with the same basic sound and general meaning.
The comparison in religious belief systems between Maori and ancient India have also been a point of major local discussion, especially in the 1800's.
I look at a vast range of evidence in diverse categories, which point convincingly to a general overall conclusion of who was here in ancient New Zealand and from whence the local influences came.
My research, like yours, is in a constant state of change and the best I can do for Mark is tell him what the present indicators are in my view. He appears to want "closure" and "absolution" and an admission that there is no convincing or definitive evidence to support any aspect of our heresy against the conclusions of the mainstream academic community. Even significant scholars within that community can be relegated by Mark to the "fringe", if they dare to postulate possibilities outside an acceptable consensus view or stray too far from the central fold.
I wish you well in your search and hope you achieve significant breakthroughs in the finding and decipherment of incised scripts. If, in the course of our expeditions we come across pictographs or potential script, we'll send photos for comparative analysis and addition to your dossier.
To see a sample of Gene Matlock's work go to: www.viewzone.com and view the article devoted to comparative religion, between the Hindu belief system and the Hopi Indian deity Kokopelli.
Date: 1st January 2001.
Subject: your obessions
dear martin, your obsessions with the cannibalism of maori
is a worry. all cultures had practices that were unacceptable to others, celts-burning women ( witches) and oh how aboriginal people cryed when they saw the celts bring convicts in chains, flog them and lock then up in stone walls. cannibalism in maori culture was ritualised within the culture , with no large animal game, fish and birds seasonal large iwis we can see why.so there is no need to use it to justify some sort of racial superiority.
Martin what is your whakapapa, who is your grandparents, great-grandparents, great-great-grandparents etc what villages did they come from. you sound like a man clutching at straws who doe,snt know who he is, with no long connection to this land you seem desparate to invent one.
Alot of your racism is subconsious, picked up from living in this country through the collective subconsious of media, school etct oh please do not give back "some of my best friends are maori..." I challange you to be very brave and go to psychotheapy and explore what this obsession with celtic new zealand comes from, I challange you to be more self-aware. regards emily
my only obsession is in gaining access to "warts and all" truth and not the "much sanitised" pseudo history that we are being force fed by the nouveau breed of historians.
I resent the hijacking of history by politically correct "social workers", many of whom display all of the attributes of appeasing "Uncle Toms"...I likewise resent those factions within Maoridom who attempt to disallow any history that does not promote solely them, in accordance with their highly modified, sanitised and often "greed driven" point of view.
I resent the instances of "blackmail"...like when a nursing student has to devote 25% of her/ his training to learning the "Treaty of Waitangi" and if they disagree on points of interpretation or express informed contrary points of view, stand to lose their careers ...and are obliged to go to Australia to get certification.
If politically motivated factions wish to use history as a weapon or for leverage, then let's find out what the true history actually is..."warts and all".
As to my whakapapa...My family once commissioned me to try to "bridge the gap" between French Canada and France. I've spent many months in the reading rooms of the Archives de la Seine (Births, Deaths, Marriages), Archives Nationales (notary records), Bibliothèque Nationale (church registers like that of L' Église De Saint Sulpice ...written in ox blood).
I was attempting to link over 1000 branches of the French Canadian family tree... ancestors who went to areas like Quebec or Arcadia in the 1600's & before. Some of my bloodlines are Iroquois Indian. I also did genealogical research in England and Germany.
Many of my ancestors had to flee to French Canada to escape the carnage and religious persecution of Europe.
Our family record of my mother's New Zealand ancestry is totally complete back to the early 1800's, as is the Ngapuhi & British ancestry of my children.
Could you please recommend an appropriate psycho-therapist, as I'm not wholly aware of the type of intellectual/ psychological modification I specifically require?
While you're issuing challenges for me, how about me raising one for you?
Kia ora. As a bystander I found the ebb and flow of this debate refreshing, unusual and fascinating. I was particularly interested in the mention of whare waananga as well as the recant of information in relation to the god Mana and the notion of mana (definitive authority).
To quote the relevant passage: "renditions of Mana or Manna, in its many related guises and derivatives, is found throughout Polynesia, as well as North America amongst the widely distributed Indian tribes. The Great Spirit was Manido, who sent to earth Manabozho, common ancestor to all tribes and creator/ preserver of earth and heaven. In the Indian Midewiwin initiation rituals, a young brave would swallow a white shell called "Manna." This act has startling similarities to the Manna tradition of the Israelites or the follow on, "holy communion" tradition of the Christians. The names Manannan Mac Lir, Mannanan and Manawydan a Lyr are the "God of the Sea" to the Irish, Scots & Welsh, respectively. Manassa, in Hebrew, means, "He shall forget his home…(wanderer)."
Tribal elders said (Mahia 1963) the Hebrew form of Mana is Emmanuel. Emmanuel is also Tama-nui-te-ra (I) who is also Rangi-nui (ancient lord of heavens). In the whakapapa genealogy record for gods the cultural Supreme Being 'The Hebrew' is named as Haepurua (Ae for short). Haepurua is male child number four out of Rangi-nui (Mao. Tupai / Lat. Gaius) and Papa-tuanuku (Gk. Baba girl / Mao. Paea / Lat. Gaia).
I was conditioned to the androdyn tradition of whare waananga, which presents Rangi and Papa as a co-existential pair. The ancestral god Tane-nui-a-rangi is the son of Rangi-nui and Papa-tuanuku. He founded whare waananga and all Tangata Maori have genealogy to prove their rights his descendants. Tane-nui-a-rangi also took the name Tama-nui-te-ra (II). An alternative name is Atene, Tenetene, Atenm in (Egypt), The Essene (Hebrew).
A comparative analysis of spoken Greek and Maori (1975-1976 three weeks using an informant) revealed there were about 2800 words with the same pronunciation and meaning in either language. Edward Tregear (Aryan Maori) says "that his language" (te reo maori) "has preserved, in an almost inconceivable purity the speech of his Aryan forefathers, and compared with which the Greek and Latin tongues are mere corruptions."
I think the linguistic relationship to Minoan is marginally closer than the one with Greek and both Minoan and Maori words end with a vowel.
I have had two different forms of training a: in the western linguistic tradition and b: in the whare waananga tradition. According to Hine Waitere-Ang (1998) "disciplines privilege their own validating mechanisms" and I guess that is another way of saying conditioned mind-space, institutionalised training and research prerogative sometimes operate in ways which focus but pre-empt a wider debate of views and positions.
Whare waananga students are required to earn the right to claim and use their words and as part of that process they might conclude all words of the reo come from the pre-existential creator (IO-matua). They may go further and arrive at the understanding each word of the reo is a god, a binary sequence, a history and a science. For instance the name Mannanan is actually in the third person. The whare waananga exemplary called Rehua was observing an exchange between the pre-existential creator (Io-matua - / Yore / Yah / Yahweh) and Te Mana-nui in which (Io-matua) said "tamaiti i te mea naku koe i hanga, ko koe ko koe, child as I have made you, so you are what you are."
Sometime later Rehua had occasion to warn a rather large noisy god and its army of self-comfort. He told that god it should not pick a fight with the tattooed midget armed with a taiaha (karakia sword tongue stick / vis' revelations) and in that context Rehua concluded with the promissory words "i te mea naana, waiho maana, what (Io-matua) has made is best left alone."
The word maana means - for or belonging it. What I am saying is not only do Nga Airihia / Tangata Maori own their words and piles of rock they have the whare waananga wisdom and whakapapa of their gods.
On grounds similar, it would be my 'tongue in cheek' serious view that te reo ake (maori language) is the taowaru (eight fold way), the deo and the deus (Lat. God) / the theo and the theos (Gk devine theoretical construct), the fubark, the putake and the runestave.
There were three Aetts in the original phonetic reiputa script and the names are: te aia nuku, te aia rangi, te aio papa. Speaking of glyphs and taking into account the work of the late Barry Fell, elders said they had five reiputa (written alphabets) which interfaced with the spiritual, masculine, feminine, craft / science and trade domains.
The string knot language was called kupu (kuipu elsewhere). The hand sign language was 'te ringa-mau.' The scar-writ language was called moko. The biotechnology language is called tukara-aho and that is also the word for gene chromosome.
Many will be aware Tangata Maori tribal culture and civilisation have been organised along gene-indentured lines since before the creation of Hine-ahu-one (f) the first human being.
The work by Fell (Polynesian Rebus / Reiputa script) results in a more modern, composite and corrupted version of earlier written forms available to human beings. I have no problem with the fact whare waananga decided to obsolete writing (at least four times). The strange thing is every civilisation which had writing and a monetary system of economics seemed soon to bog itself down in argument, to strangle itself in laws and rules, to became top heavy and inefficient and then to go toes up. I agree that Tangata Maori share aspects of language and culture with many other groups on earth and perhaps that is due to widespread ocean voyaging and the efforts of whare waananga.
For instance I see Poutama (Gautama step Buddha) was a graduate and so was Mohoata - the early riser Mohammed. I doubt there will ever be a tertiary institution, which might compete the quality of whare waananga students across all cultures.
Elders agreed (1975 & 1976) with Tregears version of events i.e., that they came out of the Bosphorus (Caspian sea) area and that they were the Aria (Arya / Airi / Ide / Ariyan. That history is the last fifth of the story rather than the beginning. Buddha speaking (diary entry - Namgyal Rinpoche speaking to Cecile Kwait) about his teachers said they were the Ariyan. They were a forestry people. They had many fire rituals (there are about 65 in whare waananga) and they were 'unconscious' meaning they had achieved the illusive state of pure reflective objectivity.
Namgyal says they brought the Vedic tradition to India. Modern science seems to have backed away from the notion of objectivity. It is a state acquired by deep meditation in which you shut up, keep still, stop day dreaming and get lost. The conscious brain is a concrete barrier standing in the way of objective states. Before Tangata Maori were re-invented as a race (1820 - 1840), their spiritual form of identity in whare waananga was Nga Airihia (those raised up). Elsdon Best says Airihia is an ancient raised homeland, a spiritual place.
Elders always make the point that whatever other say "kei a matou anake te whakapapa a (Io-matua) - we alone of the children were given the right to carry the whakapapa of the pre-existential creator (Io-matua) the God of Yore / Yah / Yaweh. In effect that is the Nga Airihia / Tangata Maori source of titular property rights and knowledge.
It does not mean they are not prepared to share their gods and wares with others and the Treaty is essentially a test of aroha. It is true also that gods do not sit around in heaven watching T.V.
Whare waananga gods have their many entrances and exits across time, planes and cultures. Thus the Celtic version of Mannanan belongs to the Celts. It is their special treat of great words spoken of them for them and theirs. Even young Tane has completed several work shifts as an Aryan / Celt and thus the names Tano, Dano, Kano, Tanu, Dane, Shane, Smithy and Schmidt. Here is the Nga Airihia / Tangata Maori whakapapa for Mannanan.
(Io-matua) pre-existential orb parent, path, keeper and way
Rehua Kotuku (Josh Lyr / eagle one)
Te Mana Kotuku (Mannanan Emmanuel / eagle two)
Tane Kotuku (The Essene / eagle three)
Wherever there is one there are three but wherever there are three it would seem four were present. People should not claim to have ancient knowledge meaning 2000-100,000 years. That name Midewiwin (Mana belonging to the tangata whenua of America) comes from the first universe run set called Tihei wiwini (the breath to initial existence). It is no mean feat to journey back in time that far but if one did that then this run-time would mostly be deja-vue.
If western civilisation succeeds in progressing the human specie back to genesis, the Dark Age of genocide - mutation, mutilation, genetic warfare and total humiliation perhaps the Celts may get to see their Mannanan draw the red huata (javelin). It seems to leave the hand and arrive at the other end of the universe. Everything which is unclean and in between is thereinafter called toast. It may draw the platinum silver huata instead. Then it would not matter where a noisy god went to ground. The spear has a nose for its target and 'goodbye' means forever. Mannanan might put on its living moko and draw the taiaha (karakia sword tongue stick / spatula / tooth pick) in which case a god is to get a very public whipping or worse fifteen dimensions are about to become instant dust.
If the Celt looks they will see their moko. If Nga Airihia / Tangata Maori have a peek they see the moko of the life-force seething and dripping the golden treacle. If the women look there will be times when they see it's a Muriel with a rolling pin instead of an Uriel with a spatula. Tribal elders had a vision when conducting a ritual baptism. They saw the universe beehive stack of fifteen dimensions reached to below the armpit of Mannanan. I think the word giant may be inappropriate. Rehua and Tama-nui-te-ra (I) (Mannanan) were the models for the demigod essence in nga Airihia / Tangata Maori. We all seem to have tripped up somewhere along the way. Tama-nui-te-ra (I) / Mannanan /
Rangi-nui is also the name of the old whare waananga teacher who taught demi-gods to graduate earth asylum as worthy human beings who might also make exemplary gods for their own, of their own. Great cultures and wisdom civilisations were the result.
Sadly there are rises and falls. Generations forget life is a privilege and the quality of greatness sits on the PHI / pie or pillar of humility and compassion. It is certain power without compassion is most incorrigible. The student Pythagoras introduces the issue of human entombment and his theorem arises as part of that search for answers. His training schedule and findings seems very close to that of Tane.
I agree many human groups eventually arrive at the point where their universal alignment structures are mathematically precise and also genetically relevant. However it appears those who mixed human genetic material across species are indeed no longer with us. I think it is necessary to understand the asylum is also within. The human being fell by degrees of arc to the point where it has taurima (5%) of mental capacity left. Tautoru (3%) is for 'cogito ergo sum, hello and valette whereas taurua (2%) is for I am hungry, I need to go to the toilet, has anyone seen my warm coat and yes my heart is still beating.
It is a very dim light for modern science to be claiming great knowledge or a break through in anything. No one should be too precious about his or her knowledge capability, wisdom or positions of privilege. Back to the quarry and the test of immortality. The minimum result of failure is a hole about the size of Taupo or Santorini but the effects can be unpredictable. For instance it is not so nice if 300 million people incinerate by the one blink. Sometimes it pays to take a conservative view.
Fell said Maui Tikitiki was a student of Erasthothenes (Rata / Greece. 223 B.C). The petrus (old man) looked after the library. I guess that may partly answer the question about Nga Airihia / Tangata Maori mathematical ability in days before. When whare waananga abandons something it means the institution has found other ways to resolve its challenges. Personally I prefer genetically embedded automated maths. Maui was also a student of Tama-nui-te ra (I). At times a student enamoured of its knowledge allows arrogance to enter and interfere the equation. There was a genetic problem which needed sorting out and I have no doubt it would have been in time. You see Maui had an elongated head and six fingers from a Pharaoh who had done much muddling - everywhere in the Mediterranean region or so it seems.
As an aside my nanny was Ahenata in Ti-Matangi / Aotearoa. She is Akhenaton when at home in Rara-land Egypt, or Ashton the druid if she made to call in for tea and scones at Te Papa - my place on the Isle of Man. Tama-nui-te-ra (I) did warn Maui not to take the test. The advice was ignored and consequently Nga Airihia / Tangata Maori (90% descend from Maui Tikitiki) lost parole (out house visiting) rights. That lasted until 1996-1997 when something happened to clear the debris. The elder brother of Maui was Maui Mua called Rupe (Lupus - wolf of the shaman) in whakapapa. He succeeded in those Stone Age tests and that line retained the knowledge. Some people say this is the tangata whenua line but I notice the whakapapa contains the same ancestors so they may have been jumping the ocean, ship and the fence all along.
Percy Smith and Shand created the myth of two races and Elsdon Best bought into the argument. The old peoples' records from the Chathams show they called themselves Nga uri o Rongomaiwhenua, Rongomaitere (descendants of R&R) prior to 1835-1840)). As a matter of convenience the land court reinforced that myth. The fact some of our ancestors were fair skinned and had blond, red or blue green hair and eyes does not mean that the Celts were here first.
When mine saw Cook they bolted. His sailors were weathered and tanned to the complexion of leather.
I thought genetic study showed Nga Airihia / Tangata Maori carry an older version of the pro-white gene (incl. African / Asian / South American). That mark on our backs (Mokoha) has different colours and that transcribes our cross-cultural genetic relationships. Nga Airihia / Tangata Maori have already identified and named their 70 female (70 male?) foundation gene lines in the names of their gods.
Back to the test. It is necessary to have at least two good whakapapa. One also needs to understand the human being reflects the universe in whole and part and then it is necessary to live cleanly and to be well trained and properly energised. The stone structures are part of that training resource and facility. If people could use some advice I will say don't measure the stone, make friends with it instead. I found it was a test of the manawydan the sacred heart of (Lyr) Rehua. In the test what hits the student is travelling much faster than thought. As a whare waananga science the test is called mana. Ma is foundation information (legend) and na is foundation energy. If you bundle that together you have mind extrapolated over matter in which case you are working with the foundation building blocks of the universe and existence.
One should not buy into this illusion, which presents itself as reality. You see there is a funny thing - but if you are watching universal transactional and reality transformational thought you see a parcel arrive about every 5-15 minutes, depending on the state of health. Then you will see feedback energy come out and take off toward the nearest out matter. When the human being can see this phenomenon it should become suspicious. The final realisation is that reality is strobe piped in and out. And if that is so then what is a human being and what is reality?
We found it was necessary to jump ship in order to answer that question. Knowing this Buddha and other wise men and women will arrive at the conclusion this is the illusion. Maths may get dumped soon after because no one seems to want to run around measuring illusion. The stones are part of the riddle as well.
I hope I have taken the scalpel to a few local cobwebs and re-spliced some Celtic braid. It is good to see academic courage has many and several refreshing places.
Heoi ano - greetings once again!
There are surprising revelations in much that you say, especially relating to approximately 2800 words of the Maori language, which are deemed highly comparable to Greek/ Minoan in pronunciation and meaning. Having a foot in each of two camps, 'a: in the western linguistic tradition and b: in the whare waananga tradition'... gives you a distinct advantage that few researchers can duplicate. You are privy to very old and specialised information, oral traditions and insights reserved only for those who undergo the profound whare waananga training.
When I speak of "Celts", that should be interpreted as the "forebears to the Celts"...groups like the Milesians, Tuatha De Danann, Firbolg or Fomorians, etc. Many remnant structures in New Zealand display attributes consistent with how these ancient groups lived, built domestic dwellings and defensive areas or raised astronomical sites in the Northern Hemisphere. These ancient groups later amalgamated to become the Celts by about 1000BC.
It's refreshing to read your acknowledgement of the wider range of groups who were in New Zealand during ancient times, some or many of whom became ancestors to Maori at a late era. Your reference to, 'Maui had an elongated head and six fingers from a Pharaoh who had done much muddling - everywhere in the Mediterranean region or so it seems', describes in part a local "throwback" trait. I know that a prominent New Zealand chief (Te Raupraha I think it was) had six fingers on each hand. There are also cave drawings in New Zealand depicting "six fingered hands". This was a common trait amongst the large stature Nephilim people of the Middle East, who also had "double rows of teeth" (hyperdontia). Two such skulls are reported by an "old-timer" I interviewed to have been found in the north of New Zealand around the beginning of the 20th century. The gentleman simply came out with the information without any prompting from me. What he was describing was relatives of the group who built the early mounds of North America...six fingered, six toed, double rows of teeth, eight feet tall Nephilim-type people...some of whom, apparently, also made it to New Zealand.
From my own European perspective, I want to know about and pay homage to my distant, world travelling relatives whose ancient remains, along with those of many other groups, lie in the burial caves or are interred in a trussed or sitting position within the sand dunes of this country. It's profoundly important to me and my European people to rekindle links with our long lost, migrating cousins who wandered so far from the mother countries. We want to get to know something of them and how they fared for many generations far from our traditional homelands in the Northern Hemisphere.
To our great chagrin, however, we are denied access to our people and when their remains are discovered they are, all too often, gathered up by regional iwi and hidden away forever. Many tens of thousands of these skeletal remains have been unceremoniously destroyed since the 1860's. We want to have unobstructed, scientific access to those remains that display recognisable physical attributes consistent with unique aspects of our European physiology and ethnicity. We want to subject their red, blond or brown hair and other parts of the remains to DNA analysis to find out what particular branches of the family tree these people represent. We wish to know the migration route that they took, potentially through many generations and several countries, to get to ancient New Zealand and clues within their physiology can tell us that.
It is easy to detect their remnant influences in the ruined structures scattered across our landscape or in the mathematical knowledge that remained till a late era and was encrypted into such whare waananga structures as the Crosshouse of Miringa Te Kakara. Maori are in a position to gift this knowledge back and aid us in fully demystifying frustrating lingering anomalies in our oftimes confused interpretation of long-term regional history.
I found the references to writing or recording forms and practices extremely interesting, wherein you state, 'elders said they had five reiputa (written alphabets) which interfaced with the spiritual, masculine, feminine, craft / science and trade domains.
The string knot language was called kupu (kuipu elsewhere). The hand sign language was 'te ringa-mau.' The scar-writ language was called moko. The biotechnology language is called tukara-aho....' I have long-since come to the realisation that particular types of "Moko" contain highly scientific astronomical, cyclic and calendar counting information. Other forms and styles of Moko remain a mystery beyond my ability to interpret and perhaps contain no astronomical information, but relate instead to such things as warrior prowess. The "string knot" language is reminiscent of a communication or record-keeping method utilised in other countries, including South America. I know that Sanskrit text has been located in Eastern Polynesia, as well as Lapita pottery (a pictograph form) recently found in Tonga. It is reported that pottery fragments were found in the caves of Port Waikato and ended up in a private collection somewhere in that area. I have also seen pictograph rocks in reasonable numbers throughout New Zealand...like the Raglan boulders or the Puniho stone of Taranaki. Barry Fell found an ancient form of written script in Taranaki and gave an interpretation of its meaning.
I realise that the knowledge of the whare waananga is very profound, with aspects that are considered sacred or even secret. I know also that Maori have attempted in times past to enlighten historians about what has occurred regionally, only to have carefully preserved oral traditions treated as unreliable or outright mythological. The elders have since reverted to holding significant information to themselves, rather than "cast their pearl before swine". In the light of new archaeological discoveries and enhanced ability to assess and interpret information through scientific advances, perhaps it's time for Maori to proffer their significant knowledge anew to the open, honest and truth-seeking masses.
Best wishes and thankyou for your very detailed contribution.
Martin - I would not want to make a comment about which language is closer, Minoan (matrilineal) or Greek (patrilineal). I come from a matrilineal tribe and there may be a bias. On this plane I think it is necessary to establish matching between language, custom and culture, e.g. the ancestress Hine-rau-wherangi (f) (second human being) has several names. One is Hine Rea.
In Crete Rhea is the daughter of Baba / Papa / Paea / Gaia mother earth. Papa is also the male name for the female earth. There is a 70-80% match between Greek and Nga Airihia / Tangata Maori myths. Myths are used to navigate dangerous waters. If an ancestor died at a certain point in training one knows there is danger at that point and can lock into another
ancestor who managed to get past the section.
I think it is also necessary to establish whakapapa or genetic connection. I thought Victoria and Massey completed their combined study (alcoholism amongst Tangata Maori) of genetic material. So far they seem to have traced Tangata Maori back to the hill people of Taiwan. I think it is a question of time before that work is completed and a worldwide picture will emerge.
Genes: This genome project is not new. One of the strange things is that if you track the research progression you find yourself tracing the development of the computer 32K, 44K (some scientists are at this point), 64K (Chinese mokoha ying / yang were here), 128K (One group of scientists are at this point), 640K (next generation of scientists if we get that far). The
computer reflects the biology which produced it, which its principles of logic enshrine. I wonder who is watching whom. Some whare waananga students were regarded as biological robots. The name for that is mareikura (f) and whatukura (m).
Old and mod.com: Each time I returned home from university, elders would sit for nights and days. During these sessions they adjusted, matched, added to and corrected the western knowledge. Whare waananga is another gear on top of that. If a person has a genetic or historical connection then it is possible to re-fruit that knowledge onto this plane. Elders may not answer a question directly because they had a view telling is not the same as knowing. They provide the training process and that re-generates the relevant experience, which they then deny or confirm.
Whilst at secondary school (1960/s) I did question elders about the Celts. The said, 'na te aha matou i tapaingia taua ingoa i runga i a koe - why do you think we put that name on you? 'Then came the training and at the end you know who you are, what you do and have done across time.
Moko: There were four European men (1810-1835 onward) who were accorded the rank of fighting chief in my tribe. Two received facial and thigh moko and two received whole bodymoko called whakairo. The prophecies of Nostradamus were tattooed on the body of one and a watermark moko (like a jig-saw) was put on the other. Whare waananga tattooists have an experience in which they see the moko before the person arrives. Your view there is a connection between moko and the universe is correct. For the sake of biological maths - I will give you one whare waananga insight. Start with the carvings. Mark out all the centres of every spiral (extrinsic and intrinsic) e.g. the mouth, the nose etc. There will be some straight lines and some parabolic shapes. Then turn around and consult your star charts. The human being duplicates reality and the universe. You might be able to tell the Chinese how acupuncture works and you will end up back at Stonehenge. Someday perhaps there will be a centre of Celtic excellence in this country. I think it is as much a wish as a dream reality.
Red hair: Have no problem with that. The ancestor Te Whatui-apiti (350 years ago) had red hair and some of his descendants at Te Hauke have the same coppery hair. At birth mine (until age nine) was yellow (not blond). Elders said the crazy hair came from Rehua. In the pre-earth tradition the wives of Rehua are Ruhia-i-te-rangi (Lucia fair of heavens) and Peka-hawani (Rebecca). Anyone who has met the ancestress Rongomaiwahine during the last 400-500 knows she has emerald eyes. She also wore the tuareanga (Bedouin opposed (R&R) moko). Other women wore 'manu korihi te ata' or komako early morning bird moko. Some of our women wore variations of the tamaiwaho opposed dog moko and some wore variations of the puriri (phoenix) butterfly or moko based on other butterflies. There was a tradition for the teachers Rehua and Ruatau. Instead of dying they would take their leave - walk away from the people and explode: - one into all the butterflies the other into all the birds of earth.
The Tuatha De Danann (Ko Ruatau / Ko Ruatara Te Tangata). That is an ancestral dual essence a tauira or exemplary demi-god. It is also an old name for Manaz / Emmanuel. It also means the two exemplaries were present (Rehua and Ruatau). The Moki fish travels in pairs around the rocks. Stand still turn around and you will see the other one. The cultural Supreme Being Dagda / Dagaz (Tau-kata). That student withdrew from the world and went walk about (wanderer) on the land. Provided people could locate him they might ask it to make a wish for them and in a very short time they would receive that gift thing or knowledge. That word tau-kata means he was a jovial Buddha always laughing and smiling.
Pyramids: Einstein speculated there was a narrow void shift where space interacts with matter and that is correct. Those who built the pyramids translated that knowledge to the slope. All kinds of strange things can happen in that narrow gap rather like sneaking under the wire fence at a prison. We are okay here because there are many hills with the correct angle. Of course those hills have to be in the right place on the three earth grids. All whare waananga conform to those grids and we have our ways of finding where they are and how to fix them if they have been damaged. I often travel across country in the dark to be at these places in the absence of people.
India: Bill Maloney (Clive H.B) had an old map of India. The names of many of the old ocean voyage canoes were listed on it as villages. Bill was an expert in the pa of Heretaunga because elders (Tu-ranga Karauria and others) took him under their wing. He had the best collection of old books and material I have seen and he knew what was on each page. He used to own a bookshop. I think it was in Wairoa. He said it went broke because he couldn't part with his books.
The tai-maru (Tai-chi) of this is in the kowhaiwhai pattern on the tahuhu ridgepole of the house. That is why some sections of the genealogy repeat at about 30-35 generations. We used to hang our shields along the outside of our houses and the lone koruru shield is still there to remind us. I have no problem with round houses. Rongomaiwahine tribe had a history of pou-whare (round houses) and there is a modern one at Mohaka / Raupunga called Rongomaiwahine.
We measure time by the number of kotuku white heron cloaks. (600-800 years to complete one cloak at eight feathers per bird per year. Then we have a hakari a gathering across tribal boundaries. Elders say five cloaks were completed. I think it is inevitable archaeologists will need to look beneath the layers of Taupo ash. The story of those eruptions is preserved and held by the Tuwharetoa tribe.
I am fortunate in having a background in whare waananga as well as an ability to tred water in this modern world. Thus twin peaks became twin rivers, two legs, one road to follow and two mouths to feed - one with food and one with wisdom.
In consideration of the many stacked stone structures, walls, etc., for domestic purposes or standing stone circles, sighting pits, outer marker trenches and the use of "V" attributes in the natural landscape for astronomy, your reference to the "feather cloaks" makes perfect sense. If each completed cloak represents 600-800 years and the 6th cloak is in the making, then we can assume some continuous local ancestral lines of almost 5000-years duration.
The purpose built structures found in New Zealand look very "Megalithic Age" and it would seem that the old mode of living didn't change radically right up until recent centuries. This tried and true way of life was regulated by astronomy and close observation of the cycles. It was reasonably simple but by no means primitive, as the mathematical knowledge required to calculate and stay abreast of certain cycles was astounding in its sophistication.
I would like to see an expanded scientific programme of genetic tracing occur that was aggreeable to all parties and participants, so that the greater worldwide spread of ancestral lines for Maori can be positively identified. Such a programme would certainly fast track our knowledge of what occurred locally. The line to the hill people of Taiwan might be predominant and prove to be the most important, but there are altogether too many other worldwide influences in Maori culture to stop there. A gene found amongst the Tongan people shows a link to the Basque region of Northern Spain. Some 20,000 American Indians have the rare Haplogroup X gene, which links them to Europe and much of the evidence on the New Zealand landscape would suggest that similar ancestral lines will show up strongly amongst pre-colonial Maori.
A scientific incentive to do worldwide genetic fingerprinting was undertaken a few years ago and was generally entered into with enthusiasm by indigenous groups everywhere. Aroha Mead campaigned to have the programme stopped by an appeal to the United Nations and, as far as I know, was successful in curtailing any general blood sampling of Maori within that programme. Since that time there has been some limited analysis done under very controlled circumstances and only approved aspects of the overall result appear to have been released. While I can agree with many of her views about curtailing "idiot fringe" or exploitative, big business interests in the growing "genetic" industry, it seems a pity to not use legitimate areas of the science to trace the movement and merging of ancestral peoples. For those of us passionate about "who went where and did what" in history, such tools are invaluable.
Again, many thanks for insights into the workings of the Whare Waananga. I hope that the onslaught of the computer age, with its many mind-dumbing distractions, has not depleted the supply of initiates. Certain things must not be lost and hopefully the "brightest and most adept" of the iwi children are still availing themselves to learn the "old knowledge", so that it can be passed on intact to yet another generation.
From: Ross O'Halloran.
Subject: Celts NZ.
Dia duit a Martin, Connas ta tu? Must say a very interesting site! I can't say that I totally agree about the Celts being here at any stage, but I do agree that open debate is a good thing. Funny how people get on their high horse and say that a people weren't here before the Maori, but they said that about land dinosaurs and correct me if I'm wrong, but there were land dinosaurs here in little old NZ!
Just after the turn of last the last century, about 1906 (if I remember rightly) an Englishman discovered some naturally preserved human bodies in the desert area of Urumchi, North West China. He made the mistake of dating them to about the 1st century BC by the Chinese ruins in the area, They turn out to be at least 4000- 6000 years old! The thing about these bodies is that they are European; some wore tartan cloaks, trews (no kilts! the Celts never wore kilts!) and they had tools etc. that not even the Asians had!
So the Chinese tried to hide these bodies from the world, especially the west, as the belief was that the east influenced the west! A few decades ago an American was officially visiting the Museum in which these bodies were hidden and 'oh dear bugger' the Chinese had left the door to the room in which these bodies were hidden, unlocked. The American found the bodies and informed the west and so on! The Chinese hid these bodies as the local people in the area are not Asian and the area is important to the Chinese Government!
What is it the Christians say? 'Cheats never prosper!'
In America they have found many pre Asiatic (North America Indian) Skeletons with European features and in South America they have found skeletons of Negroid features pre dating the South American Indian culture! It makes you think doesn't it? (If you are open minded enough!!!)
Now I feel a little history lesson is in order for the morons out there who read this and those who have written to Martin, who have made some bone head comments! For the likes of Emily! Where in the hell did you get your information on the convicts from? I don't know what upsets me more, your stupidity or the fact that you would write such a comment! You obviously know nothing about the Celts Emily! So here goes; The Celts once controlled most of Europe, they were the first to work iron in the area etc., but their demise started at the battle of Telemon 225 B.C. (Italy) when they were soundly defeated by the Romans, followed by Julius Caesar's conquest of Gaul 58 B.C.
The Romans then invaded Britain attacking the British Celts in about 45 A.D., then in the 400's they left the Romano-British to fend for themselves and then came the Angles (hence English), Saxons and Jutes, Germanic tribes from the Denmark Germany boarder area. They of course brought with them the English language, then came the Vikings. They raided settled and married Irish, Scots and Pictish Celts in what was left of the once great Celt peoples, so watering down the blood. Then in 1066 came the Normans who were originally of Viking stock who had settled in what is now Normandy (Norman = Northman). In 1169 the Anglo-Normans invaded Ireland on request of an Irish king to help him get his crown back. They moved into Wales and Scotland (the later peacefully to some extent) so do we get the picture? There are NO full blooded Celts left! What we call the Celts today, the Irish, Scots, Welsh, Manx, Cornish and Breton, are really just people who have only just managed to hold onto the odd Celtic custom and language! And here's a shocker for you Emily, 90% of the convicts taken to Australia were Irish! Yes its true, by the English so it wasn't Celts taking convicts to Aussie it was Germans taking Celtic convicts! And if you don't believe me go to Wicklow gaol! Learn History properly Emily! Do not go for the Romanised stuff!
'M (white, Celt and student of history and anthropology)' you are obliviously an expert (ex being something that's past and a spert's just a drip under pressure). Hate to tell you this M, but the Vikings discovered America before Columbus and it may well be they heard about it from the Gaels (Irish Celts) and their myths and legends, as did the early Spanish explorers. That is how Brazil got its name from the Celtic other world Hy Breasil in the story of Mauldun, but M being a Celt will know all this! M is not a Celt M. is a joke, a product of our universities! If M was a Celt, M would have stated M's full name and been proud of who M is and M's Ancestors!
Well I have that off my chest! All our ancestors did things that we today are not proud of but why we need to hide it in the closet with any other ancestral skeletons we find is beyond me! My ancestors the Celts hunted heads, were madly fond of war and went into battle naked and drunk on honey mead, but the had their good points too. They had an equality society where men and women were equal and the list goes on!
The Maori were here before my people who left Ireland 1885 to come here to own land, as they weren't allowed to own their own land in Ireland (the Irish were sold back their land by the English gentry in the 1920s when they became a free state!)! And I don't really care what happens to the land. As I see it I'm a caretaker of the land, as were my forebears whereever they lived! So when I die I hand it onto the next caretaker and hope they care for it as I do, for at the end of the day the land owns me 'cos that's where I'll be buried 6ft under!
This all said and done I am very interested in human history; I have my own theories, which I keep to myself. I've been told by a Maori elder; stories of a people here before them. But they may just be stories or they could be fact. You never know! Why should we stop someone from finding out? If Martin fails what has he lost? At least he tried. If he succeeds we get a new chapter in our history!
So keep going Martin think outside that square! (Still not sure about the Celts being here first but you never know!) Nice site and if you've never read Land Marks of the Tainui Vol. 1; it's an interesting read!
Ros Seigin 'Faolandub' OhAllmurain.
It's very difficult to find an appropriate term or title for describing the tremendous mix of peoples who amalgamated to become the Celts or who later interrelated with remnant Celts to become English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh. In this regard I can sympathise with Emily's umbrella term (referring to anyone of British stock)... to simply call them Celts.
If one is being very precise about a particular historical incident and point in time, involving European peoples, then use of such a generalised and broad term (Celt) would, most oft, be totally inappropriate. I use the umbrella term myself for the convenience of giving a general idea of the the kind of ethnic stock who settled New Zealand in ancient times. I have seen where prominent British historians do the same thing when describing the pre-Celtic people of Britain, before the advent of the Celts around 1000 B.C.
Technically, I'm in agreement that the Celtic era, as such, was a little too late to truly describe the earliest "Stone People" occupations of New Zealand, although a very adept associate feels my estimates are a little too early.
The expressions I see in the New Zealand landscape look remarkably British / European Megalithic Age, but Eifion, a linguist and historian from Ireland, who has carefully assessed local structures, calls them Neolithic. If he's correct then some of the migrants to these shores might have qualified as "true blue" Celts. The evidence would suggest continued comings, goings and pre-colonial visits by a wide variety of groups, right up until the late era Spanish mariners.
Emily was commenting more specifically on the sentiments of the Australian Aboriginal people when they witnessed "white European convicts" in chains, which they saw as unusually harsh and cruel punishment. Her focus was more on the activity than the specific categories of family groups, within European communities, of the sufferers. Her use of "Celts" was simply another way of saying "Europeans"of British stock.
There's a huge amount of archaeological and historical work to do in New Zealand. Our country must qualify as one of the most neglected regions for open scientific investigation anywhere on the face of the globe.
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 10:14 AM
Subject: Feed Back
I readily admit that I am probably not as educated, (or maybe aware) as some of the people who use this site. I entered only out of interest and hopeful of further educating myself as this subject is close to my heart because of my particular genetic cocktail, being Scots, Irish, Danish and of course the ever present Maori, which it would seems from my readings on your site I should be ashamed of, (not so, I embrace it as I do everything else that makes me, me). Your us and them attitude lessens the value of your site and lessens your argument that it is not the place for politics. I suggest that you do not try and validate your argument by joining people in the gutter for what you call a shit fight.
some time ago a letter came in, which accused me of being a racist for having the temerity to question politically correct, racially sensitive, sanitised New Zealand history.
I took offence to the tone of the letter and reacted fairly strongly. I'm not particularly interested in wearing other people's labels, only in what constitutes valid history.
For many years now, here and abroad, people seeking to uncover historical facts or deviating from the approved line of questioning, have been labelled racists and unceremoniously dismissed for expressing unofficial viewpoints about who did what.
This most successful ploy of recent years, aimed at stifling any in-depth discussion before it begins, has sent many a questioning historian, archaeologist, anthropologist or politician from the stage, cowering in shame.
No-one wants to wear that ultimate derogatory label and it has been the most successful "shut you up and shut you down" tactic of the past two decades.
But, alas, the tactic's not working so well these days... a bit like the swear words that caused shock and horror 40 years ago, which today wouldn't raise an eyebrow. Its impact has been nullified by overuse
With all the "kill a white" or "flotsam and jetsam of Britain" type comments of recent years, as well as the utter distortion of colonial history to endlessly portray the Brits as evil, land grabbing, despotic bullies, many Europeans have become thick skinned and immune to the continuous barrage of insults.
Apparently only Europeans can be labelled "racists"...others can say anything they like and Europeans are expected to wear it and then apologise.
All of the social problems that beset Maori today can be attributed to Turia's "post colonial trauma disorder syndrome", we're told, and blamed upon European's for coming here in the first place and disrupting the tranquil setting.
Amongst other things, Europeans are blamed for deliberately "killing the Maori language" by not allowing Maori children to speak their language at school. We're told the horror stories of cruel "Masters and Mistresses" punishing the Maori children for speaking Maori... but what are the historical facts?
In about 1873 a large delegation of Maori, numbering over 100 leaders, made representations before the Government about the inclusion of Maori children in the colonial British school system. The delegation laid down strict rules of what was required, as they'd concluded that it was imperative that Maori children become quickly adept and conversant with the English language. The delegation said that the first and foremost subject of study for their children would be English, the second subject would be English and the third subject would be English. They requested that "Masters and Mistresses" who were assigned to their districts be "non Maori speakers" and that the children were to be forbidden to speak Maori at school. It was to be English at school and Maori at home or on the Marae.
The Victorian colonial teachers assigned to the country schools acted according to the requirements and policies laid down by Maori leaders.
Generations later the issue is used to show the dominating cruelty and cultural insensitivity of Europeans and is yet another example of how valid history can be distorted to unfairly apportion blame.
This is the level of discussion that I've, from time to time, been dragged down to when, in fact, my entire area of study is pre-Maori history. I'm interested in the ancient Mediterranean cultural symbols that have filtered through to late era Maori and in tracing those symbols back to their earliest known sources.
My main area of study is residual structures, like "standing stone circles" for astronomy or "beehive house (stone dome) villages" for domestic occupation, etc.
Although I receive tremendous help and support from many Maori, there are others who take a very dim view of anyone questioning their official, scrubbed and polished, much modified version of history... or dabbling in an area of study that they consider to be their exclusive domain.
Just as both you and I are a "genetic cocktail" of many groups, so were pre-colonial Maori. The Tangata-whenua were a mix of red headed and blond Europeans, Asians, Melanesians, South Americans and the issue of all manner of early groups intermingling across the vastness of Oceania. This fact is acknowledged by many Waitaha, but these days severely censored in other Maori quarters.
These are the "unmentionable ancestors", who many Maori don't wish to acknowledge, perhaps because they represented the remnant "slave class", without mana ...the people conquered by those who came from Hawaiki.
I've never wanted an "us and them" situation to arise...to do so would put me at odds with my own children, who have a Ngapuhi lineage.
Perhaps it's time to remove those letters from the feedback section of the website.
My policy has been to let anyone have their say and to call me what they like...but that I will react accordingly.
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 4:36 PM
Subject: Nicholas Toa
I have just browsed through your site and would like to offer some advice on your quest for info on the ancient history of our country. I am a male of Te Atiawa, Maniapoto, European decent. Being brought up around my old people and hearing bits of information throughout my upbringing on the history of my people where I live I feel there are some areas of information you are not sourcing.
My grandmothers last message to us, [ and vast was her knowledge] was "Te Atiawa never had a waka and never forget". Now for myself this tells me that the Te Atiawa iwi have always been here or are descended from an earlier tribe who were. To state that because there are Celtic looking ruins in NZ so therefore the Maoris weren't here first is a naive assumption. Remember before Europeans arrived we referred to ourselves as Te Atiawa or Nga Puhi or Tainui or more ancient tribes were Waitaha, Maruiwi, and Moriori. These people I believe were a mixture of all cultures who have lived and settled here.
New Zealand is a country far richer in history than most realize. If one truly wanted to find things out I believe the first place to look would be amongst the kaumatua, historians, and knowledgeable within the various iwi around our country. You must realize that to talk to the people who currently call themselves Tangata Whenua may not have been living in the area of investigation at the time in question. Tribes roamed in nomadic fashion for centuries for all kinds of reasons, war, conquest, food, eruptions and many more. My own people once ruled over an area from Wellington to northland, also occupying parts of the South Island. Currently our boundaries are Northern Taranaki and parts of Wellington.
I am trying to say that to talk to the current iwi of an area doesn't mean you are talking to the only iwi who can provide answers. Your reason for the cover up of the Northland site being that New Zealanders would not handle the controversy because of the land claims currently being disputed is wrong. Only people who hang on to the large amount of red neck propaganda being spread around concerning the land claims would be upset .The land claims are a modern day legal issue to compensate New Zealand citizens who had something stolen from them illegally [the confiscations happened after the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi so we were all New Zealanders at the time].
I believe the reason is that if Celtic people lived here and proof is found it will cause a major upset in modern day archaeological theories and accepted information that is being taught to the masses all around the world. To drop a bombshell like this on modern day society may cause history to be re written and cause more trouble than it's worth. Archaeologists are a group of people who dig something up, sit around the table after all the possible evidence has been sourced on the object then create their story on the subject. Sometimes they are way off the mark, as I have a cousin who was given the honour of being the guardian of an ancient burial area of our whanau. He was taught ancient knowledge by our old ones [who are all gone now] and knows things that an archaeologist would give anything to know. Recently he returned from a trip overseas to find archaeologists digging up our whanau's bones tagging them and sending them off to their lab for analysis. His first reaction was to ask them what they were doing. They said "we are digging up the site so we can tell you how your ancestors lived". He eyeballed the archaeologist and with a low voice quietly said, "All you had to do was ask, I could have told you anything you wanted to know, but right now you can put my uncle's bones down and leave!"
The moral of this story is if respect is shown and correct procedures are shown to the Tangata Whenua, the pathway to knowledge is easily found. My cousin will not talk to anyone who he even suspects to be an archaeologist now, and the area he watches over is private land. He obtained a list of artifacts stolen and has requested their return [3 tonne in total]. He told me it hurts him every day they aren't returned but that they only found a small amount compared to what they missed.
There are many people like my cousin in NZ but because of disrespect shown towards them and their culture they remain quiet and stand back in silence watching [sometimes using intimidating behaviour like leaving threatening letters on car windows] and look on in amusement at the ignorance.
I hope this has been helpful in someway,
When in my late teens I spent two years living in Maori communities and in one small hamlet on the East Coast I was about the only paleface in town. I lived in the homes of Maori families, attended the hui's, tangi's and other functions on the Marae and worked in predominantly Maori construction gangs. I was made to feel totally accepted, at ease and at home with my surroundings and admit to being quite chuffed when addressed in the Maori rendition of my name, Martene.
In those years I was sometimes introduced to and had discussions with the very old Patriarchs and Matriarchal Kuias, (many of whom still had chin mokos) and some spoke very little or no English. Knowledgeable elders and friends told me aspects of the history, but being so young, I didn't always listen as intently as I should have and missed out on many gems.
This was in the middle sixties when New Zealand was a much less complex place and, as far as I could tell, we were all getting on remarkably well.
We used to talk openly about the "red headed Maoris", "waka blondes" or Moriori and there were still a lot of iwi in those years with the ginger tinge in the hair and freckled faces. I remember one elderly lady who still had traces of the ginger hair. She had a chin moko and spoke no English, although she looked fully European. I was told at the time that she was one of the original people, taken into a Maori family in about the 1880's-90's and raised within the community.
One of the primary problems of the "new history" being taught is that many of us, Maori and otherwise, have heard the old stories related by the elders and seen the evidence left by the earlier "stone people".
Your area of the country has long been occupied and was a major ancient centre of the stone people, who left hundreds of carved hills, as well as standing stone markers and intricately carved boulders like the Puniho stone. Some of these items or structures are, undoubtedly, many thousands of years old. I personally believe that giant PA's like Turaturamokai or Koru PA are too close in resemblance to "Celtic" palisaded fort construction not to draw a parallel and were, like so many thousands of other New Zealand PA's, originally built milleniums ago.
In recent years some of us have remembered anew the stories the elders told us and have begun to pour through old books where the oral tradition history is recorded. Even your own, Sir Peter Buck, buried just north of the Waitara Valley within the boundaries of your iwi, spoke openly of these things.
I fully agree with you that, 'New Zealand is a country far richer in history than most realize. If one truly wanted to find things out I believe the first place to look would be amongst the kaumatua, historians, and knowledgeable within the various iwi around our country.'
But how much are the truly learned kaumatuas allowed to say these days, when the power of leadership has so often shifted from the traditional royal families and knowledgeable elders to the more "corporate minded", kaumatuas?
Indeed, Maori are in a position to totally turn regional historical interpretation upside down by revealing artefact, oral tradition and skeletal evidence, related to the pre-Maori occupants of this country.
When the elders will not or cannot help us in this quest, then we turn to the landscape itself, as the profound knowledge of who was here and what they were doing still lies dormant in such things as stone positions. The landscape itself speaks very eloquently about astronomy, overland mapping or the measurement standard used to code seasonal cycles. It also tells us the most likely Northern Hemisphere groups that were here, within reasonable tolerances… simply by the types of structures or symbols we're finding.
You state: To drop a bombshell like this on modern day society may cause history to be re written and cause more trouble than it's worth.
Somewhere along the line we've got to make a choice between whether we're going to deal with the "truth" or waste our time and that of our children learning pseudo history and fantasy. If socially engineered history is all that's in the offering, then it's a pointless exercise in futility even bothering to learn it…like digesting corporatised media muck, from outlets where there is no truly investigative journalism…hardly worth listening to.
Whatever treaties Maori entered into with the British Crown are legally binding upon both parties, regardless of who was here before Maori. The gripe issuing forth from many Europeans or others including Maori, in recent years, has nothing to do with the Treaty of Waitangi, only the "interpretations" slick, modern lawyers have put on it's 1840's clauses.
In the sixties we were all in agreement with the overriding theme of the treaty…HE IWI TAHI TATOU…WE ARE NOW ONE PEOPLE.
From: G. S.
Date: Friday May 10th
Subject: Correcting Errors.
tena koe Martin
I do not know if you are racist or not - perhaps you are not and I will assume such until I know more about you.
However, upon reading through your site I must challenge some of the assumptions being made, which to my mind can only be regarded as being sourced in a delusion of European-supremacy (the Superiority complex of Pakeha New Zealand)
I am Iwi maori AND am I also tangata whenua. When my ancestor Ngatoroirangi arrived upon Te Arawa waka he found earlier peoples here (including Hapuoneone, Maruiwi even Patupairehe) These people were not unknown to him because they too came from Hawaiki in earlier migrations - Note that it was Ngatoroirangi who brought the Patupairehe people to the inland mountain regions of Te Matapuna!. These peoples had much intermarriage with each other and ALL of them are my ancestors.
Yes my ancestors are Urukehu from Airihia and Kiripuwhero from Uru. My Ancestors are Kiritea from Arinuiteao and also Hema ALL these people come together to create Tangata maori - the people of Polynesia.
What you erroneously claim is that my Urukehu ancestors were celts you then try and justify this by saying pre-celts. The People of Europe are the bastardised offspring of my Urukehu ancestors and Neanderthals. It is thus that European ancestors like Darwin claim descent from Apes - because of the interbreeding between humans and Neanderthal Ape-men
My Urukehu ancestors came from the land Airihia which is also called Arya.
According to the 'Vesta' Holy Text of Zoroster Aryana Vejahe is the home of Aryans (Airihia) (and later it was called Bactra and then Khorasan). The Aryan civilization of my ancestors encompassed a large area at the heart of which was the land of Khorasan that covers today's Afghanistan eastern Iran and Central Asian countries.
These are the people whose mummified bodies are found in China and who crossed into America also. Polynesian tangata whenua and American tangta whenua all derive from Asia and before that back to Airihia according to true human lines from Eve in the Garden of Africa-Eden.
From here too they moved towards Europe and there encountered the neanderthal inhabitants of that peninsula. I ask you this question, Who are the Picts?
When the Neanderthal-Celts entered Scotland they found the Picts already there - a people who tattoed their bodies and spoke a language unknown to the celts. I say to you these people were tangata maori ancestors but their traces have been absorbed into the European bloodstream and the confused history and myth of the Romans and celts who followed them - this is how the celts got OUR swirling patterns from the Picts. This is also why Europe was the font of all disease which afflicts the new world, the interbreeding of Human and Neanderthal made them sickly but immunity developed and then it was able to spread to those countries without immunity in Polynesia and America killing many in its influenza epidemics.
This is the Assumption you make in error that the urukehu of Airhia were pre-celts when in fact they were not. The pre-celts of Europe are Neanderthals and the Urukehu people (called Cro-magnon fossils in Europe) interbreed with them creating the celt.
Your second assumption is that 'Maori' conquered and wiped out the tangata whenua. NOTE I am not Maori. I am he tangata maori (a human being) of the Tuwharetoa iwi (Nation) and also Tangata whenua through intermarriage between Hapuoneone and Nga Oho of Te Arawa waka.
I am also descended by marriage from European lines
Yes our ancestors were cannibals and ate the flesh of their enemies and slaves. It was a common thing in ancient times. Our common Pict and neanderthal-celt ancestors also ate the flesh of enemies.
But it was celt ancestors who would draw and quarter their enemies, impale them through the anus while they still lived, and burn men women and children on great pyres and watch as the screamed for mercy. Perhaps it was thus that the Pict was wiped out from history.
At least we ate ours...
Hi G. S.,
I can't comment on your iwi oral traditions regarding the many lines that make up your ancestry, but do know the Mediterranean/ European history of my own people and who they were.
You state that, 'Hapuoneone, Maruiwi even Patupairehe' were already here when your ancestor 'Ngatoroirangi arrived upon Te Arawa waka' and that, 'These people were not unknown to him because they too came from Hawaiki in earlier migrations'.
Indeed, some of these early groups had formerly lived throughout Oceania, but because of warfare had to seek sanctuary in New Zealand or elsewhere. One of these early groups was "the children of Poutini", who were the offspring of Tangaroa, the God of ocean migrations. Tangaroa was described as "sandy haired" and had originally come from a land where the leaves only stayed on the trees for half the year. His offspring were finally chased from the isles of Oceania, including Tonga and Samoa, never to return.
From Easter Island to Tahiti and Tonga, as well as further afield, these "stone builders" left many temples and other large cut stone/ stacked stone structures or paved roadways/ pathways, artefacts, etc. The Island of Moorea in the Tahitian group is known in regional oral traditions as, "The Island of the fairy folk with golden hair"… not unlike many descriptions of the small stature Turehu of New Zealand.
The children of Poutini, amongst many others found by your people upon arrival from Hawaiki, were the great carvers of greenstone (pounamu) and are thus referred to in Maori oral tradition as "the greenstone folk". Of the children of Poutini Maori oral tradition states, 'They were attacked here and lost a number of their people who were slain, which was a benefit to the Maori people. These slain and captured greenstone folk represented blocks of greenstone acquired by the Maori and famous greenstone artefacts' (see Nature Myths…The Dominion Museum article).
The children of Poutini, like the "Moon Maidens" who were also the offspring of Tangaroa, were "urukehu" (reddish golden tinged hair) and "kiri puwhero" (reddish, light complexioned skin).
This was the era when, 'war, strife, quarrelling were brought hither by the people who came from Hawaiki'.
It is refreshing to see Maori beginning anew to embrace a wider range of ancestors, including the urukehu/ kiri-puwhero, who were also my long lost cousins, migrating far from our traditional homelands in the Northern Hemisphere.
Your more debasing assessment of my direct lineage seems to span over 35,000 years of human development in a sentence, linking archaic Neanderthals into a supposed amalgam of genetically inferior people, who culminated into "Celts" at a late era. You separate out the earliest "Picts" of Ireland as a non-aligned, purer strain of undefiled people (unsullied by Celtic contact) who can be associated with your Maori lineage.
I have no idea to what degree my most ancient forbears wished to interbreed with Neanderthals or if an inferior, disease-ridden scourge class of human was, as you suggest, the result of such interrelationships....however:
In 1997 ancient DNA was extracted from a Neanderthal specimen from the Feldhofer Cave of the Neander Valley near Dusseldorf in Germany. Prof. Matthias Krings took and tested DNA from the right humerus. The results were then replicated by Prof. Anne Stone working in Mark Stoneking's laboratory at Pennsylvania State University.
As a result of these tests Prof. Mark Stoneking and his many colleagues expressed the bottom line conclusion by saying, 'These results indicate that Neanderthals did not contribute mitochondrial DNA to modern humans; Neanderthals are not our ancestors' (see Uriel's Machine, pg. 6...also "Book of the Year", 1998, Anthropology and Archeology, Britannica Online).
Whatever you might wish to believe in this case, we Caucasoid Europeans seem to have fared sufficiently well to establish successful functioning societies and don't seem to have retained any distinctly Neanderthal physical traits, such as the rocker jaw mandible.
My European forebears have long-since kept written records or oral traditions related to the interaction between our cousin peoples of the Northern Hemisphere, and these accounts span many thousands of years. My people left a network of waymark trails from former homelands in the Near East, as they migrated westward across the coastal stretches of North Africa toward the Straits of Gibraltar, or eastward to China (hence the mummies of Urumchi) and Korea. They also left many gravesites and standing stone or cairn monuments during early era migrations from lands East and North of Egypt or within the boundaries of Egypt itself, onward to Continental Europe, the British Isles or elsewhere.
During these nomadic migrations from parched and increasingly arid homelands, we took our sciences, numerical systems, volumes-weights-measurement standards, navigational/ astronomical knowledge, bagpipes, harps or flutes, plinn rhythms, languages, stories, religious expressions and beliefs, cultural symbols, etc., with us and used them wherever we stopped or settled.
Many or several of these unique cultural idiosyncrasies are clearly in evidence in the very ancient structures of New Zealand or are represented in primary symbols, ornate early era meeting houses, etc., that are found within Maori culture. Strangely enough, these same cultural symbols, in possession of Maori, are not so clearly in evidence or used by Polynesian cousin peoples in the isles from whence Maori came. It is almost as if Maori developed a whole new culture upon arrival from Hawaiki. Many local structures, whether astronomical or domestic, are decidedly pre-Celtic/ Celtic in appearance and method…which means Fomorian, Firbolg, Tuatha De Dannan, Milesian, or even marginally Celtic, Briton, Gallic, Iberian, Pictish and otherwise...these were all related peoples of the same, general family tree.
You ask, 'who are the Picts?'
The Picts were not so much "a people apart", although considered by many to be descended from or the original people of Ireland (Fomorians & Firbolgs). Traditions related to these earliest Irish settlers speak of a Mediterranean origin (Men of the leather bags...who had come from enslavement in the Mediterranean).
The name Pict is said to be a Latin term for "painted" (Pictus) and refer to the ferocious northern British tribes who besieged the Roman garrisons of England after about 360 AD. These late era Picts arrived by sea from the north (Scotland/ Ireland) to do battle with the hated Romans and adhered to a tradition of painting their faces and bodies with blue wode dye (war paint) before a fight.
In L. A. Waddell's, The Phoenician Origins of Britains, Scots & Anglo-Saxons, the author states that the name Pict was a late era Roman nickname, never used by the "Picts" to describe themselves. Other evidence suggests that some of their earliest Irish predecessors originally lived in burrows or subterranean dwellings.
If one delves into the culture of the late era Picts, then it is evident that they were heavily amalgamated with or culturally influenced by art forms of the Tuatha De Dannan, Milesians and Celts/ Britons, amongst others, which forms had migrated originally from the Middle East/ Near East into the British Isles over a span of millenniums. Late era Pictish art is some of the most intricate and beautiful to be found in the British Isles.
We might concur on a point of belief that some these earliest inhabitants of Ireland probably found their way to Oceania and New Zealand and were related to the Turehu of this region. Certainly, the early history of Ireland refers to the very small stature people (Caucasoid pygmies) who became known as the fairies and dwelt in subterranean abodes in the deep forests. Legends related to these early Pacific inhabitants extend to New Caledonia.
Although these people lived simply, they were highly skilled and intelligent. I believe that such people (or a branch of their family tree) built many of the early standing stone circle observatories of New Zealand. Locations like the low aspect, heavily forested Koru PA in Taranaki are a labyrinth of subterranean tunnels…with stone circles situated nearby.
The Picts and other cousin peoples occupying the British Isles at late epochs could be described under the umbrella title of Hebraic or Hebrew…later branches of which became Israelite at the Eastern base of the Mediterranean or Celtic in Europe. These early era Hebrew peoples had a longstanding tradition of advanced shipwright skills and were adept shipbuilder/ navigators, who ranged out across the entire world in search of resources (primarily metals). The Greeks called late era Hebraic seafarers Phoenicians and one primary Phoenician colony was in Great Britain, where they maintained tin mines at Cornwall for many centuries prior to 1000 BC.
It is clearly evident, in consideration of the ruined remnant structures scattered across the New Zealand landscape that these seafarers ranged as far as New Zealand and set up sizable colonies here and in Australia in ancient times. For reference/ clues to some of their Northern Hemisphere navigational and astronomical mathematics, which later came into the possession (knowingly or unknowingly) of Maori, please refer to the article devoted to "The Crosshouse of Miringa Te Kakara" within this website.
My mention of rampant cannibalism amongst Maori, for which I've taken considerable flak, was, in part, originally in response to accusations that colonial Europeans somehow "ruined" the tranquillity and social infrastructure of New Zealand by coming here. New Zealand was once a very dangerous place to live and I believe the transformation from "what was" to "what is" has been mostly positive. This is why Maori of the 1800's, en-mass, rejected the old ways by such acts as cutting down the Pohutukawa trees adjacent to their settlements on the coast…you undoubtedly know why….
Many were anxious that generations of utu and muru would cease under Crown protections and colonial settlement buffers between iwis… and that safety for the whanau could become a reality after so many wearisome, dangerous centuries.
The horrific impaling and gruesome death of which you speak was the fate of up to 300 pacifist Moriori in the initial siege of the Chathams (Rekohu or Wharekauri) by Ngati Mutunga and Ngati Tama, part of the Ngati Te Atiawa confederation.
The ultimate indignity for the Morori, however, came much later from spokespeople like Willy Jackson and others, who in recent years have publicly stated words to the effect that, 'most scholars agree that the Moriori people never actually existed and were purely an invention of colonial Europeans'. Similar statements were made about the Waitaha people.
Because of such attitudes and non-recognition of existence or status, remnant Moriori have no rights to ownership of their rich fishing grounds around the economic zone of the Chatham's. This zone has been awarded to mainland tribes, many hundreds of miles away…people who have never visited or had any true affiliation to the Chatham Islands…it's truly bizarre how history must be distorted to justify greed driven political agendas.
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002.
Subject: re: celticnz site.
Perhaps one of the more racist and bigoted sites on the internet. This site is completely eurocentric and denies Maori ancestry recognition of any technological advance- even of the most basic kind shown to have been used in civilsations the world over.
O dear Charlotte,
The site does what?
We have very definite anomalies on our New Zealand landscape or "out of time and place" skeletons in our burial caves that are causing us to question our very limited "official" history.
The choices that are available to us under the circumstances are:
I have read your web page with interest and enthusiasm. I am the author of the book "Atlantis: the seven seals" (1984), still alive! You should read it because it supports your views and not those of Mark Newbrook. I had dozens of disputes with him. (He describes himself as a modern scholar, but his views are as antediluvian as the dinosaurs.) My book locates Atlantis, which was not a sunken continent in Plato (as Newbrook and some other scholars define), but just a partially sunken island.
I wonder if you would be interested (or if you would know any open-minded scholar interested) in a massive similarity of cognates between two linguistic groups: the first group includes 43 minor Philippine languages, the second one the Baltic languages (Latvian and Lithuanian). Although they may have been the results of ancient contacts, and we may not claim a linguistic relationship yet. Even if all those would be loanwords, it must mean physical contacts in remote times.
Mark has criticized, heavily, my material that has been prepared on an academic level, with a table of comparisons between each of the 43 Philippine languages, and a graph demonstrating that the results are quite scientific and not accidental: the errors between the 100 first and 100 last words alphabetically result in a nice bell-shaped Gauss-curve. Mark's opinion was that my work was totally unnecessary and amateurish, and that the linguistical classification of those minor languages has been done by proper scholars long ago. (The only problem with his idea, I suspect, is that those alleged scholars have never published their results, but kept them in their drawers forever.) We could construct a lexico-statistical diagram out of the similarities of basic word lists for those Philippine languages. Although the formula given by Swadesh (I do not remember the correct spelling) is obviously inaccurate, even David Crystal admits that there is no better way available yet.
For your information: About 70 years ago a Hungarian traveller, Vilhelm (originally Vilmos) Hevesy or Hevesi published a serious and nice, thick book entitled "Munda-Magyar-Maori." As you know, Magyar is the real name of the Hungarians, and Munda is a Dravidian language, if I am "correctly mistaken." He had listed hundreds of common roots in those three different languages. I can tell you that it was a serious scholarly work, even if only 50% of his matches could be justifiable from the linguistic point of view. Unfortunately, the world has forgotten his results. However, his detailed comparisons and correspondences between the picture-writing symbols of Rapa Nui (Easter Island) and Mohenjo-Daro (NW. India) are very convincing and have survived in many books, despite the militant opposing views like the ones represented by Mark.
I wish to call your attention to the Egyptian dictionary of Sir E.A. Wallis Budge. It lists hundreds, or rather thousands of old Egyptian words as they were transcribed or pronounced. I do not remember the title, but it was published about 1900, in two or three thick books in small format. The hieroglyphs and the corresponding words are listed side by side, only not in English alphabetical order. I made at least 10 pages of notes, marking down hundreds of words. (I still have them here in Brazil.) Dozens of words like "mortar" or "marsh" or "sadness" have Hungarian counterparts (the latter is "buban" in Egyptian and "búbánat" in Hungarian). You can identify a surprisingly high number of English, German or Spanish word roots in that ancient Egyptian vocabulary.
I am not sure if you are familiar with things like the Gaelic traditions connected with Egypt in/at pre-Exodus times, or the mummified kangaroo that was found in Egypt.
Some orthodox modern scholars may think that they are demigods in the sciences. They love to exclaim their dogmas "ex cathedra" and condemn the different views to death. However, scholars can be wrong in many things and, in general, the size and high number of the cattle is no guarantee "per se" that the herd is progressing in the right direction. Just one example here:
One of the best linguistic handbook about the English language is written by Albert C. Baugh and Thomas Cable, entitled "A history of the English language" (London: Routledge, 1993 and 1994, pp. 49-53) states these conclusions, reflecting the mainstream linguists, quite empirically: The ancient English Saxon and Jutish (Jute) were not distinct languages but probably dialects of the same language in 450 A.D., mutually intelligible for each other. The linguists have introduced a convenient fictive misnomer, called "Old English" or OE. Mainly with political ambitions, in order to shift back the age of the first documents, so the English language may gain more prestige.
Most of the lay readers, and soon the linguists themselves, started to believe that the Old English was the Number One ancestor of the English language, and without the existence of that fictive Old English the modern English, or perhaps 90% of it, simply could not exist. But this may not be the case. A group of open-minded scholars may realize that the language mistakenly named Old English was once simply the "lingua franca" in England. Its real speakers have lived mainly south of the Thames, in the areas where the Saxons had settled: in Wessex, Sussex, Middlesex and Essex. The English population partly accepted that language as a necessity until the Norman Conquest as literary standard, for it was the dominating language (not dialect!) then. Documents written in real Old English have not survived. Practically all documents written in that age have originated from the Saxonian area (says Baugh and Cable) that had no English population, so the official misnomer "Old English" should be called "Old Insular Saxon." After the Norman Conquest the real Old English, spoken by the majority of the population in the whole country, had become dominant and the misnomer has died out. About the year 1300 A.D., English occupied its place and became widely spoken; a collection of metrical hominies have survived from those days. Some scholars (at least the authors of the book) claim that the (misnamed) Old English has lost 85% of its original vocabulary. It is an absurd claim. The extrapolated, false and scholarly biased conclusion: the existence of incredibly strong forces causing revolutionary changes which phenomenon is readily applicable for any other language.
It is probable that the Angles, the ancient English inhabitants of Mercia, have never spoken the Saxonian (Germanic) language at their homes. The truth is that the languages of the Saxons and Jutes had died out, and their traces have only survived in the southern dialects of England. The dialects are often remnants of sunken languages, regarding their basic words. These illustrate the effect of different assumptions at the basis of any science, including linguistics, and their extreme importance.
As editor and proof-reader of the Encyclopaedia Hungarica (Alberta, Canada) for a decade, I can add one more detail. I have studied the Maori and other Polynesian-Melanesian-Micronesian languages systematically. (We have published a Polyglot Dictionary of 116 languages of the world, based on their 555 important words). You can believe it or not, but hardly anyone is interested to see it. Numerous roots of the Maori language have proper Hungarian counterparts, as for the cognates. Of course, I do not know much about the grammars of those languages. Anyone studying that polyglot dictionary will conclude that orthodox (incl. historical) linguistics needs a serious overhaul. Most languages had some kind of contact many thousands of years ago. The diffusionist theory is closely linked with linguistical similarities, and that is the main reason why orthodox scholars are fierce in refusing any allowance in both of those areas that would go against their rigid, fragile dogmas.
Zoltan Andrew Simon
Senior Editor/ Land Surveyor
Glad to know you're, "still alive". I very much appreciate your input and to learn of new resources related to the origins of the Maori language. I'll try to source the book, "Munda-Magyar-Maori." by Vilhelm Hevesy or Hevesi. Also, your Polyglot Dictionary, which gives "Hungarian roots" to many Maori words is something I have never heard of previously.
Although said to be a figment of our uneducated imaginations by Historical Linguistics academics like Mark Newbrook, we are, nonetheless acquainted with the apparent Indo-Aryan and Numidian-Lybian language or religious influences that seem to exist in Maori culture. Inasmuch as the forebears to the nations of Europe once lived in Egypt and vacated that increasingly arid region by about 5000 BC, it would be unsurprising to find Middle Eastern/ Near Eastern root words in Hungarian.
In New Zealand we have duplicate systems of overland markers, set out in the selfsame geometric patterning, as one finds in Western Europe and Britain, so there is a very strong indication of a vast European presence here in antiquity. This can be substantiated by the skeletal types encountered in our ancient burial caves, which are/ were often found in a trussed and sitting position. If Maori language roots are found in Hungary as well as the environs of Egypt (Libya), with many Hungarian words stemming from Egyptian, then the triangle is complete and makes sense. Maori language was influenced by an earlier people in this country who were, by all accumulated facts, Europeans.
I would dearly like to trace the origin of placenames, like "Taranaki", which is the name given to a beautifully symmetrical conical peak volcano found locally. The occurrence of "Tara"- based names is frequent in Ireland, and the district of Taranaki has a large Rath/ Cashel structure with, possibly, a mile or more of high stone lined embankments and souterrains within the walls. This very large communal, carved, tiered and stone walled hill structure would seem to be more at home in Ireland than New Zealand. There are many of these burrow dwellings and "labyrinth of tunnels" hillocks or cliffs around our country and the souterrain domestic lifestyle, as a cultural idiosyncrasy, parallels the way the very early Irish lived and built.
Personally, I would welcome an intensive investigation of the Maori language or any surviving, very ancient New Zealand placenames to see what the totality of language influences truly is. The astronomical/ navigational/ mathematical language of Europe and the Mediterranean is here, encrypted into the positions of markers on the landscape, so it follows that verbal language influences should accompany them.
From: Gene Matlock.
Date: Wednesday, 27 November 2002 10:26
Subject: Ancient language influences of the Southwestern United States and Mexico.
You would’ve loved to be on the bus with my wife and me about three weeks ago, when our bus was in Northern Sonora, near the border. At one point, everywhere we looked, we saw the ruins of ancient stone walls and circles at the tops of low hills. These same walls and circles are also plentiful in Southern Arizona. That part of Northern Sonora and Southern Arizona is part of the O’odham Indian nation. The O’odhams themselves don’t know who built those walls. Many have told me that they think the Spaniards built them for defensive purposes. They are reputed to be many thousands of years old. The ruins of stacked stone houses are also found on those hills. The strange petroglyphs on the stones were not made by Native-Americans. Archeologists have just now begun to take an interest in these old ruins.
Our bus stopped at Caborca, Sonora, so that we passengers could get breakfast. Even before the Spaniards arrived, the strange people who built all those stone structures were mining for copper and gold in the area. In Sanskrit, this word would be Kuber-Koh, a hill named after the Hindu deity of treasure seekers and miners Kuber, Kubera, Khyber, etc.
Also in that area there is an old cave called Babo-Quivari cave (Grandfather Khyber or Kuber). Near Sells, there is the mountain Babo-Quivari, sacred to the O’odhams as the navel of the world, and Quiburi, in the Benson, Arizona area – all ancient mining centers. While I was enjoying breakfast in Caborca, I was reminded of two great mining centers in Australia: the copper mining area of The Great Cobar, and Kuber-Pedi, the famous cave city and opal mining center. The Membreno Apaches of New Mexico have a name for their caves: Quarai, pronounced Kubarai, which means "Many caves." Also in New Mexico, there are the ruins of La Gran Quivira, an area that was once an ancient mining center before the Spaniards arrived. I want to add that an Apache Membreno chief in New Mexico, whose domain covers the Silver City area, wrote me a few months ago that he and his friends have dug up a small silver statue of God Poseidon. However, he won’t let me see it. Indians are like that. Anyway, Mark Newbrook wouldn’t believe it was Poseidon even though these Indians dangled it on front of his eyes. He would say that it was an "original" Apache statue, no doubt, so that these Indians could feel "ethnic pride." I keep asking myself why and how mining centers all over the world came to acquire derivations of "Khyber" and "Kubera."
As I told you in a previous letter, I don’t consider myself a linguist. I am just a layman who once studied, lived, and traveled extensively in Mexico and throughout Meso-America. During my studies and travels there, I came to wonder why so many Amerindian gods, place names, sexual terms, geographical configurations, astronomical terms, etc., etc., had Hindu names, especially names of God Shiva. At the same time, I have wondered why these Amerindians who worshiped God Shiva also revered the Swastika, the maze, trees, standing stones, and place altars and shrines on the tops of hills and mountains.
I’m just going to name a few of the Amerindian deities. Many of these deities have names of Shiva.
The O’odhams worship Shiva as I’ithi, I’itoi, Sewa, Siva, Teo, Su-uu, Se-e-ah, etc. Need I compare these names with their Hindu equivalents? They also worship a God of Gods, called Jeos or Josh, a name nearly identical to the Hindu Dyaus (Pronounced as Jyaus). Dyaus is a name of Shiva. Their Sun God is Tash, a name similar to that of the Phoenician Sun God, Tashia or Tashio. O’odham is also similar to the names Oudh, an ancient region near present day Herat, Afghanistan. Sanskrit Hama, meaning "People." O’odham = Oudhama?
The O’odhams divide their districts into Chek-Shanis. In ancient North India, Shek = "District." Shan was a tribal name. And here’s another bombshell. Each and all of the O’odham districts has its counterpart in ancient Afghanistan!
That part of ancient India comprising Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kashmir, Western Tibet, Uzbekistan, etc., was called Siva-Puri. The Puebloans, such as the Zuñi, Hopis, and others claim that they came from Sivapu/Sibapu, etc. Even their names came from India. The Zuñis’ name is similar to that of an ancient tribe of Western Tibet – Zunyi (Desert People). The Hopis’ or Hopiti’s name is too much like that of the Afghan Khophis, Hophis, La’Hopitai, etc. to be funny.
Some of the O’odham clans, the Yaquis, and other Northern Mexican tribes worshiped the gods Vari-Seva and his consort Vairubi. These names are like the Sivapuri Vari-Siva and Bhairavi of ancient times. When I told Mark about this, he said that he didn’t think these were valid comparisons.
The word "Coyote" or the American jackal appears to derive from a Sanskrit name for "Shiva as Trickster or Kubera:" Kuha-yate or Guha-Yate. A top god of all North American Indians is "Coyote Man." He is always mentioned along with a female companion having various arms, called Spider Woman.
A Zuñi "Earth Mother" is Citta. A Hindu "Earth Mother" is Sita.
I wish that Mark Newbrook could enlighten our "poor, lost Southwestern Puebloans." They claim to be Hindus, although they can’t explain why; neither are they always able to notice their connections with India. The O’odhams claim to observe the Himday way of life. The Apaches say they are Inde. Most of the Puebloan tribes say that their way of life is Inday. Of course, as Mark would say to me – and perhaps to them – "These words are false cognates."
Educated, knowledgeable Cherokees insist that they are of Turkish origin. Their god was called Yova. Their real name, Tsalagi or Sssalagi, is too nearly identical to the name of the Phoenician Cilicians to be brushed off as a quaint "coincidence": Phoenician: Sssilokay; Ogam: Siolagi; Greek: Kiliku; Babylonian: Xilakku; Xilokki.
The Aztecs, besides having many names of God Shiva, also deified an ancient king of India, a king Shibi or Sibi, who flayed himself to satisfy the hunger of some subjects. In Sanskrit, Shibi Tu-Tvac meant something like "He can who peel off his skin and change his shape at will." The Aztecs had a god named Shipi-Totec, whose title was nearly exactly like that of his non-deified Hindu counterpart. Unfortunately, unlike King Shibi, who generously peeled off a piece of himself so that some subjects could eat it, the Aztec sacrificial victims to Shipi-Totec were not so voluntarily generous.
The Olmecs were especially interesting. Their name was nearly exactly like the ancient Sivapuri title for high politico-religious dignitaries: Ul-Magh or Maghul. Like these Sivapuri dignitaries, the Olmecs, were also known as Olman. Their other names, also from Sanskrit, were Shi-Lanca and Shika-Lanca. According to the Hindu Holy Books, the New World had two names: Atalandesha and Lanka. Atalandesha meant "The Underworld Land." For the Aztecs, Atlantesh was "land by, in, through, the water." The Ramayana states that God Kubera transported many Indian undesirables from Sri Lanka, such as cannibals, etc., to the New World, also giving Mexico the name of Lanka. The Sanskrit equivalent of Shi-Lanca would be "Shiva Lankans." Shika Lanka would be "Lankan Sheiks or Lankan Leaders." Still another name of the Olmecs was Vistote. In Sanskrit, Vistota means "Indentured Servants." The Olmecs claimed that some of their kind came from a land known as Temoanshan or Tamoanshan. Here we have a name of the Maoris.
The name "Nahua" must surely derive from the Sanskrit Nava (ship. Sailor) or the other word for sailor: Navaja.
Rapa Nui, the name of Easter Island, means Rap-Nav-Vi in Sanskrit, "Land of Lost Ships." Has anyone ever noticed that those stone heads once had stone turbans? However, most of them have fallen off.
I’m going to name another Hindu God and then end this letter. I could go on forever. In ancient Kerala, a bloodthirsty tribe called Mahesh-Shika, Maheshasura, Mashishi, etc. swept down on the region, cutting off the heads of everyone they could catch. They were called "decapitator demons." A great king of the Keralans, Lord Ayyappa, defeated them. Then, he and the surviving enemies disappeared, never to be heard from again. Suddenly, an Ayapa-Ek and a decapitator demon turn up as deities of the Moshica in Peru. Even many of the names in part of Peru are like those of Kerala: Pampa; Bamba; Karal, etc.
Even though I could keep up with these correspondences for God only knows how long, I’ll stop for now. They wouldn’t convince Mark Newbrook anyway. After all, isn’t he a one hundred percent, dyed-in-the wool, scientific historical linguist? I’m just an ignorant layman.
Because I have talked with some of Mark’s disciples, I know that if we were in an argument, he would, like his followers, say, "Let’s agree to disagree."
Hell, I would’ve "agreed to disagree" with him even before he opened his mouth.
Therefore, since we both would’ve "disagreed" from the outset, there’d be no need to talk further about this – if he’d stick to his word.
American researcher, Louise Lacey, has told me about Southern Californian structures similar to those you mention and sent me pictorial literature concerning them. It seems apparent that many anomalous stone structures and markers of the Southwestern US/ Mexico are not being properly assessed by the mainstream American archaeological community, who tend to gloss over their importance and, oftimes, simply label them as Spanish. Other structures, like those in Southern California, hardly rate any mention at all and are virtually unknown to the worldwide research community.
In many instances the structures will prove to be thousands of years old, as attested by the Indian tribes who have no knowledge of who the original builders were. A thorough analysis of these structures needs to be done to see if some of them display astronomical/ surveying attributes like the marker systems on the New Zealand landscape.
Whereas I must reiterate that I have not devoted any time to studying remnant language influences, especially to the exhaustive degree of yourself and others like Zoltan Simon, I have, however, devoted considerable time to studying land structures and their comparative attributes. The ancient stone marker systems here in New Zealand positively display giant patterns of overland geometry, which duplicate the selfsame lengths, angles and numerical coding found across several continents. If the standard geometry is readily identifiable in surveyed stone marker positions from continent to continent, then one assumes that language accompanied those who marked the patterns into the terrain and that some residual language influences, from those ancient people, are likely to remain.
Why should this be such a ridiculous expectation? The structures are certainly there to be physically measured and assessed, so why is the language influence conspicuous by its absence? Is it possible that the Historical Linguistics architects of the 19th century made a huge blunder in constructing their science? Did they approach the study from the point of view that the oceans of the world represented impassable barriers? Once committed to isolationism as a foundation principle, have several generations of Historical Linguistics scientists wrongly assigned origins to a raft of words and expressions? Do they need to reconstruct their science from the ground up, but this time take into account the huge contribution made by foreign visitors from, potentially, all parts of the globe? All that the Historical Linguistics scientist have add to the equation is:
I do in-depth research and place it into my website for anyone who's interested. It's then up to the reader to severely test the concepts scientifically to see if they will hold up under fire. I've never written articles for the benefit of 'those who matter in these things – the professionals, academics, politicians etc'., only for honest, rational and intelligent people who are free to think for themselves. I am really at a loss to know what more I can give the academics. They have been told where to look on the New Zealand landscape for sophisticated marker systems and what they will find by scientifically testing the layouts of the ancient, purpose placed structures that reside there.
The last article I wrote, inviting rigorous scientific scrutiny, was 29000 words in length and dealt with Weights, Measures and Volumes of the ancient Mediterranean. Most articles can be tested mathematically to see if there is any apparent reason or logic behind ancient civilisations embracing these astronomical/ mathematical concepts.
I believe that a long-overdue "review of history" will only happen when the hue and cry of an angry, disgruntled public becomes vocal enough to force the issue...otherwise the present inadequate paradigm will remain interminably. Only an educated public can change our present, stagnated circumstances.
I include at least one "trussed burial" skeleton picture in my website and could show more. There's also a section documenting the suppression of archaeological evidence by our New Zealand Government.
I didn't realise that Wilbur and Orville Wright had been subjected to scientific skepticism and accusations of fraud for 5-years after their accomplishment of December 17th 1903...why am I not surprised by this? Their situation parallels the lack of recognition that came to Richard Pearse for his powered flights, before many witnesses, on the 31st of March 1903 and the 10th of July 1903... see
From: Gene Matlock.
Date: Friday, 29 November 2002 00:35
Subject: Re: Names of heights in Amerindian languages.
Martin, many Amerindian tribes had and have the same names for mountains as the peoples of Northern India, Persia, and present-day Turkey: Tepe; Dag; Dak; Tel; Ucca; Koh, etc. The Nahuatl-speaking tribes used Tepe; Tal; Tul; Tol; Tel; Co. For the O’odhams, it is Da’ag; Da’ak’ To’ak. Ucca. Since you once lived in the USA, you’ve probably heard of the Puebloan "Sky City," Acoma. Back to Sanskrit and other North Indian dialects: Ucca (Height); Maha (Great). In South America, there is also the highest mountain in the Andes chain: Aconcagua and the ancient ruins of the mountain city of Tiwanaku (Devana (Divine); Koh (Mountain).
In Northeastern United States, "Hill/Mountain" was Daga (Onondaga or "Hill People:" Adirondak (Adirondaks Mts.). Dag and Dak are Iroquois words. Adri is another name of the Himalayas Adri-an-dak = Adirondak = Himalayan Mountain?
Martin, people may want to know why the most important word groups used in nearly all languages were so nearly like those of Sivapuri while the languages themselves tended to be completely unlike those of Sivapuri. I feel that this anomaly proves that a foreign culture was trying to impose its basic values on the Amerindians. For the ancient travelers you and I both know existed, the tops of mountains were simultaneously holy places, astronomical observatories, and directional aids for travelers.
By the way, the O'odham word for "sexual relations" is "Haviv." In Arabic, Northern India, Persian, Turkic, etc., it's "Habibi."
The Hindus called Australia Patali, also similar to the Patala, Atala, and Lanka they gave to Meso-America. Patala = "The Underworld Hell." You may already know that Australia was listed as Patali on Ptolemy’s world map.
According to Hindu legends of thousands of years ago, an ancient king, who was blind, asked his prime minister to describe the large land masses of the world in such a way that he could best visualize them. The prime minister described the Americas as Vishnu Kranta (The Eagle Vishnu With Its Outstretched Wings); Africa as Ratha Kranta (The Chariot Shaped); Eurasia as Asva Kranta (The Horse-Shaped); Australasia as Krauncha. North America was Pushkara (Land of The Great Lakes); South America, Kusa Dwipa, "Land of Fine Grasses," perhaps because of the grass growing on the plains known as "Pampa," "Pampa" is also the name of a river and its adjoining flood plain in Kerala, India. I wish that Mark Newbrook could explain how the ancient Hindus were able to "psyche out" the shapes of the world’s great land masses since, as he thinks, they never ventured beyond the Indian subcontinent.
As ever, Gene.
New Zealanders will be intrigued to know that the land of our arch-rivals, Australia, was called, "The Underworld Hell" by very astute ancient explorers...obviously, they were very precise observers, who never quite got to New Zealand. We can't be too hard on Australians, however, as a certain strata of New Zealand society likes to go there to live...which is really good for everyone, as it raises the IQ of both countries. Apart from the fact that there's more water in the St. Lawrence Seaway than in all of Australia, it seems to have drawn a lot of ancient visitors, many of whom established mining operations there. I hope there's something juicy in that other name for Australia... Krauncha? But really, Gene, I have to be fair...Australians are amazing, innovative linguists...you ought to hear what they can do with the Queen's English. If you're ever talking to one, never mention the number "six"...or they'll think you're talking about sex. My sister moved there ...pity really, the girl showed so much promise.
The name "Ucca" is very similar to "Yucca", which is a name for the State flower of New Mexico. The "Yucca tree" is very similar to our "Cabbage tree", which is also very edible like the Meso-American Yucca. I believe the two species are very closely related and, as a traditional staple food plant, are prepared in much the same way between South America and New Zealand. A Maori name for the "Cabbage tree" is ti kouka... which has a similar sound phonetically to "Ucca". We have several varieties of ancient food plants here that originated in South America, like the Kumara (sweet potato). The carved stone Kumara Gods, distributed between South America and New Zealand, are the same basic design configuration. We have another staple food tuber called Taro in New Zealand and varieties of it are found throughout the Pacific. Taro is also found in Egypt and the species seems to have originated from that region. The ancient Egyptian word for taro was colcus or kulkas; the ancient Arabic word was qolquas; and the Greek word was colocasia. The Hawaiians called it Kalo, which is very similar to the Mediterranean renditions describing the same thing.
In our museums are "string knot" devices, called "Kupu" in Maori. An identical type of device was much used in South America for recording information and they were called "Quipu" there...but of course these are all just coincidences.
From: Gene Matlock.
Date: Saturday, 30 November 2002 22:22.
Subject: Re: Greek confirmation of the Tanui and Aras
If our archeologists and so-called "historical linguists" knew more about Ancient India’s history, they would see that the names of most of our Amerindian tribes just derive from Indo-Phoenician terms. The Nahuas, Nahoas, and Toltec peoples could not pronounce the "V." Nava is the Sanskrit word for "Ship." Navaja = "Sailor." Arak, Uruk, and Erek were just Phoenician words for "colonists." Even the Greeks said that Erectheus, identified with the God Poseidon, distributed the races of mankind around the world. In the Americas, they became the Arawaks of the Amazon Basin, Venezuela, Guyana and the Caribbean Islands; The Araucans of Chile and Argentina; the Yuroks of California; The Iroquois of Canada and Northeastern USA. Along with the Arawaks of the Caribbean we also find the Taino. These could be the Danu or Danavas ("Fallen Angels" in Sanskrit), another name of the Kuberas or Khyberi, and the Greek Danoi. In Hebrew, Dan, a name of one of the tribes of Israel, means, "Sentenced; Condemned; Judged." The Danu were forcibly driven out of India, settling in various parts of the world. In Europe, we find reminders of them in such words as the Danube River and Denmark.
It is a strange anomaly that two of the main tribes that settled in New Zealand were the Tanui and the Arawa, names similar to Taino. Arawak, Danu and Arak.
Yes, we do have a large New Zealand Maori tribe called the Tainui, who claim descent from the Tainui canoe, the ocean going vessel that brought them to New Zealand. The Tainui tribe had their main settlement in the north Island of New Zealand around the Waikato district, with a branch of the tribe maintaining a settlement adjacent to the Manukau Harbour further north. The Arawa tribe, who claim to have arrived on a canoe by the same name settled to the southeast of the Tainui in the volcanic district of Rotorua, adjacent to a large inland lake and a series of very picturesque smaller ones. Both tribal areas had been long occupied and developed by former inhabitants, who were later conquered and enslaved (Tainui) or burnt out and vanquished (Te Arawa).
The Polynesian/ Melanesian Maori generally disclaim any whakapapa (genealogical lineage) that goes via South America, but trace their lines more directly to the north, from regions like Taiwan. We know that there was a length of time, spanning several generations probably, where Maori claim to have lived 'in sufferance under the mana (authority) of the Patu-pai-arehe' (earlier inhabitants). During this time many cultural items, including language, mythologies & religion, games, symbols, some sciences, etc., were adopted into the culture of the newly arrived inhabitants....before the era of warfare, which culminated in the demise of the earlier people. It is, therefore, difficult to know whether to assign the names Tainui and Arawa to earlier, long established peoples or latter, newly arrived peoples, as there was a period of cultural blending, where lineage names and migration routes between separate ethnicity's become blurred.
This "sharing and blending" between the early "tangata-whenua" and the latter Maori is acknowledged in part by a corespondent in this "Feedback section", Nicolas Toa, who writes, 'My grandmothers last message to us, [ and vast was her knowledge] was "Te Atiawa never had a waka and never forget". Now for myself this tells me that the Te Atiawa iwi have always been here or are descended from an earlier tribe who were'.
Individuals of both Tainui and Te Arawa descent will also claim lineage's to Toi, who was of direct Polynesian/ Melanesian descent and a very warlike individual from the land of "Hawaiiki". It is said that, 'War, strife, quarreling were brought hither by those who came from Hawaiiki'.
Mokoia Island, in the middle of Lake Rotorua, is 'sacred to four hapu, or sub-tribes, of the Te Arawa iwi. It is also home to an old statue of Matahonga, (Matuatonga) the kumara, or sweet potato fertility god'. This statue is of South American origin in terms of its style and the worship engendered in it, which can be traced across the Pacific from South America. The statue is very ancient and belonged to the much earlier people, who were burnt out by brush fires and vanquished from their large settlement on Mt. Ngongataha adjacent to the lake. It's highly probable that the Te Arawa and Tainui tribal names are very old and were adopted from the earlier peoples. Certain groups in New Zealand, like Waitaha, acknowledge the muted or forbidden history of the earlier people and the migrations from South America, via Easter Island. They also speak of the white skinned navigators who brought/ guided their people to New Zealand.
It would be interesting to see if you have any linguistic links to the Tuhoe tribe, which occupied lands adjacent to Te Arawa. A quote concerning them says:
'One of the Te Arawa's neighboring tribes, the Tuhoe people, have a history that contrasts sharply with their own. A dense native forest surrounds the Tuhoe iwi, and it has isolated them from the rest of New Zealand. As a result, the Tuhoe have evolved independently, remaining steeped in the ancient ways of their iwi. Their dialect and their connection to the plants and medicines of the bush are the strongest of all the tribes in New Zealand'.
Yes, the Phoenician mariners of the Tribe of Dan certainly got around and names like Dardanelles, Denmark (Danmark), Tuatha De Danann, Danube, Dan-Sowar, Dan-Sobairse are European placenames where they settled. These people and their cousins ventured across the Atlantic and had settlements from the Canary Islands to the Caribbean and onward to South America. Your linguistic evidence suggests a link to New Zealand, which is strongly supported by our regional surveying/ astronomical/ navigational/ mathematical/ evidence. The coded geometry on our landscape derives from the Mediterranean, Europe and the Americas.